oneidabows.net

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: Quality improvements

2010-11-14T10:59:06-05:00

Hi Sven, I am working with several others on some projects with my own money. This is extremely costly and takes up much of my time. Between work and everything else it will be a while before you see much of this work but its coming along very well at this time. Thanks to the support of a couple other silent members of this forum. We dont speak of whats going on about this until we feel we have a good product. And encourage input from all members of the forum.

Statistics: Posted by JOneida — Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:59 am

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: Quality improvements

2010-11-14T10:49:57-05:00

Joe,

Great to know that there allready has been work done on all this. Can't wait to see this appear on new bows

Statistics: Posted by Sven — Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:49 am

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: Quality improvements

2010-11-14T10:42:07-05:00

Sven that is a great post and we welcome input that can help improve oneida bows. Input from yourself and other members can only help.

As for the metal insert in the aluminum I agree that is a good idea.

The timing wheel with set screw issue. We see this quite often. We have looked at the metal timing wheel issue and also have another alternative we are looking into at this time to eliminate the timing screw.
And possibly a new style timing system.

We have two new hinge designs and just finished testing one style recently. And will have another to test shortly before deciding which to go with. We dont want the cable eating into the limb or the inside of the cams which we see from time to time. Once tested we will have to decide on which ones to use and what if any other modifications may or may not be needed. And this takes both time and money.

End caps we have also spoken about this for a couple years and finally came out with our own. And believe they work very good.

As for Quality finish we also feel there is some room for improvment and hopefully we can supply you with a better finish in the future.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Joe

Statistics: Posted by JOneida — Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:42 am

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: Quality improvements

2010-11-10T10:02:55-05:00

X2 Sven, over the years a lot of what you have stated have been brought to their attention by a few folks. I am not an engineer but I have been around these bows a bit.

I agree it is not bashing but an honest want to to see the product brought to an even better level.

You know if you leave a door open long enough, someone will walk in.

JMHO

Bob

Statistics: Posted by OBwon — Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:02 am

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Quality improvements

2010-11-01T15:02:10-05:00

Hello all,

First of all I would like to say that the things I'm going to bring up as improvements aren't criticism, as a matter of fact I love the bows the way they are. They are #1 to me. But as an engineer there are a few things I would like to see on the bow. The next subjects are based on a 2006 Black Eagle II and I must admit I don't know how the bows are made today. Which means that some of my ideas and maybe others are allready changed.

1. What: A steel inserted thread for the stabilizer mount.
Why: For mechanical purpose (like a thread) aluminium sometimes is a bit soft and damages easily.
The steel surface of the insert that pops out of the riser a little will prevent the paint job from getting damaged easily when setting up a
stabilizer.

2. What: A steel tension spool for the timing system.
Why: When I was changing my timingcable I saw that the spool had been damaged when tightening the set screw over the past few years. To get
the spool smooth in to the hole again I had to file down the burrs on the spool a little. Not much effort needed there, but to say it is normal...

3. What: Slightly wider hinges maybe only half of a milimeter (thats about a 1/64 of an inch).
Why: When changing powercables I noticed that the powercable eats it's way into the powerlimb a little, so the powerlimbs get damaged a little
and there is energyloss because the powercable cant move freely.

4 What: I know there allready is an alternative, but I can't say it enough. Oneida please get rid of those plastic endcaps.
Why: They don't work!!! As soon as the glue loosens your limbs go everywhere when loosen or thighten the weightbolts.

5 What: Overall finish.
Why: I discovered some burrs here and there, something I don't expect on a finished product.

I would like to hear the opinion of you all on this too see if there are more people who have thought about this.

Thanks Sven

Statistics: Posted by Sven — Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:02 pm

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: String Stop

2010-10-16T22:31:20-05:00

The technology of building better and improved String Stops has improved much over the years. However, if anyone remembers or has heard of the problems the built in String Stops caused with the Bear Delta V Bows of the early 1980's, will seriously rethink their use or at least consider a type that will not cause problems for bows such as Oneida Eagle and C.P. Oneida Eagle Bows! The Bear Delta V came and went very quickly due to these and other problems not to mention the weight, even Fred Bear hated the bows. From what I can remember, the two String Stops built into the Bear Delta V Bows had to have the rubber stops constantly changed and they caused premature Bow String and Cable failures which were a nightmare to change. They were also the cause of some hardware problems due to the sudden stop of the Bow String. This was due since the limbs tended to continue their forward motion even though the bow string was stopped by the String Stops. I can see why some folks would want to use them but in my opinion, the cons to their use in a lever bow such as Oneida Eagle and C.P. Oneida Eagle Bows that relies on a Timing System just outweighs the pros! Even after stating these issues, I do believe that if the String Stops were adjusted inward enough to have the bow string barely make contact thus taking out the vibration and deadening the sound of the Bow String upon release, then I can see that there would be some benefit.

Frank

Statistics: Posted by huntsman53 — Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:31 pm

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: String Stop

2010-10-15T19:00:12-05:00

Great point TSM

Statistics: Posted by JOneida — Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:00 pm

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: String Stop

2010-10-15T17:11:26-05:00

In my opinion a string stop is for accracy not a noise eliminator the string stop lets the arrow of the string the same every shot to mantain consistancy. if you look back 20 years champ target archer jim mcdonald used them on all his oneida bows.

Statistics: Posted by tree stand man — Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:11 pm

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: String Stop

2010-10-12T15:00:02-05:00

I just wanted to hit on a few points made here concerning string stops and/or other add-ons (string silencers, sound dampeners, etc.) to bows! Like Joe said, some folks may want some of these items to be standard on C.P. Oneida Eagle Bows while others may not. Besides, anything that adds cost to C.P when building a bow adds cost to the customer and with the extreme competition in building and selling bows and still keeping the prices in a range so that folks will purchase a bow, this is something that most (probably not all) Bow Manufacturers do not want to venture far into! Besides, some folks view purchasing a bow like purchasing a new truck. Some want every option that they can get while others settle for something closer to the standard options to keep from paying such a high price. How many times have you seen someone purchase a bow for $1,000 or more, then spend another $1,000 or more in accessories and add-ons???!!! I know that I have seen this (not done it myself) and many of those items are not needed. If an Archer shoots their' bow enough and becomes confident with both the bow and their ability, some add-ons although they are helpful, just becomes an un-needed extra or bling...bling!

OBwon was right on with his statements concerning extra weight and drag! Anything that adds weight and drag to the bow string, bow limbs or any moving part that effects the acceleration of the arrow upon release, is a detriment. If you must place add-ons on a bow, these should be placed at points with the least amount of travel and has the least amount of resistance. In this, I mean that String Silencers should be placed as close to where the bow string enters the string channel without hindering it from returning to the string channel once you shoot and the bow string is back in the relaxed position. Likewise, Sound Dampeners mounted on limbs, should also be placed in places of least movement and resistance (i.e. on power limbs as close to the riser as possible without hindering the flexing of the power limbs and on outboard limbs (when shooting Oneida Eagle Bows) as close to the hinge as possible without effecting or hindering the outboard limbs from coming back to full draw).

Frank

Statistics: Posted by huntsman53 — Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:00 pm

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-11T10:40:26-05:00

Mark wrote:

Also, keep in mind that even though a bolt may only be 20 or 22", it may also weigh the same as a full length arrow for a compound because the bolts general have more GPI. Barnett recommends total weight of ~450 grains for their faster crossbows and ~425 for their average speed crossbows. My full length 31" arrows for my SE are 430 grains. Effective range would theoretically be the same.

Well, there is an apparent difference between Barnett and Horton Crossbows! When I had and shot my' Horton Hawk SL 150 pound Crossbow, it shot 20 inch Easton Powerbolts with flat nocks, inserts and 100 grain broadheads.

20" x 10.5 grains per inch + 37 grains for flat nocks + 43 grain insert + 100 grain broadhead = 390 grains

I can use the same bolts for my' Horton TR Explorer 175 pound Crossbow but have to use the moon nocks which are 12 grains each and 125 grain broadheads. Funny but the total weight is identical!

20" x 10.5 grains per inch + 12 grains for moon nocks + 43 grain insert + 125 grain broadhead = 390 grains

This is quite a difference compared to a 430 grain total weight for a 31 inch arrow! Also, unlike objects of different shapes where length may not be a factor, KE's effect on an arrow or crossbow bolt which is a straight...hollow Aluminum or Carbon rod or tube, is not only a factor of mass but also a factor of it's length since the KE is transferred along it's entire length. I am not sure how KE comes into play considering the diameter of a straight...hollow rod or tube but I am sure that there is some effect and calculation for it!

Frank

Statistics: Posted by huntsman53 — Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:40 am

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-11T09:41:27-05:00

The comparisons that have been made on both sides are very good ones. It is true that a crossbow bolt has great KE at the start of the shot and true that the down range KE is much less. The one thing I like to compare a crossbow to as far as KE is a pistol is sand. If you have ever shot a pistol into a sand bag you know that it will not pass through. But if you shoot an arrow at the same sand bag the arrow passes almost all the way through. The same thing happens when you compare bolts and arrows. I also agree with OBwon on the accuracy of crossbows. In the right hands they can be Robinhood accurate. A friend of mine has 3 bolts stacked from his crossbow at 40 yds. Now remember he did this with only 3 arrows not dozens to get this result and practiced all the time with his crossbow and knew how to make it that accurate. The best thing that can be said about trying to compare the two is you can't because they are apples and figs.

Statistics: Posted by Bowbum — Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:41 am

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-11T05:03:20-05:00

You list several reasons why there is an unfair advantage with a crossbow. Exactly my point. I believe that there is an advantage, unfair or not.

Also, keep in mind that even though a bolt may only be 20 or 22", it may also weigh the same as a full length arrow for a compound because the bolts general have more GPI. Barnett recommends total weight of ~450 grains for their faster crossbows and ~425 for their average speed crossbows. My full length 31" arrows for my SE are 430 grains. Effective range would theoretically be the same.

Statistics: Posted by Mark — Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:03 am

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-11T03:08:21-05:00

I am sorry that I am chiming in so late on the debate about the accuracy and ranges of a Bow (Compound, Recurve or Hybrid such as an Oneida Eagle bow)and Crossbow but felt that should have a say!

To compare shooting a crossbow from any kind of resting point (log, shooter's rest on a treestand or other) to shooting a bow off-hand, is an unfair comparison! Even off-hand, I grant you that a person can hold on a target or animal much longer with a crossbow than most bows but only to a point. Most crossbows are heavier than the majority of bows ever produced and if you have to hold one off-hand for a considerable amount of time, your accuracy with it will decrease considerably by the minute due to fatigue. Also, since that vast majority of crossbows are outfitted with some type of scope compared to the the vast majority of bows being outfitted with pin type sights or crosshair sights that use pins and a intersecting fluorescent wire, is another point of unfair comparison to accuracy. For most hunters and/or target shooters, there are many inherent advantages in using a scope versus a pin type sight. The accuracy of either a crossbow or bow is only as good as the person shooting it! I once knew an instinctive bow Shooter (Archer) that could shoot Aspirins out of the air with every shot, could center the Bullseye of a target mounted in the center of a tire that was rolled off of a hill and traveling at probably 40 mph or faster and make many more amazing shots and that was without the aid of any sight or scope whatsoever. How many folks do you know that could do the same with a crossbow with or without sights or a scope?

As far as the ranges for both, I feel that many (not all) bows but especially Oneida Eagle and C.P. Oneida Eagle bows have a greater range distance-wise and effective range than crossbows no matter how much poundage and speed the crossbows have. I agree with OBwon, that the drop is much greater on a bolt shot from a 280-300 fps second crossbow than an arrow shot from a bow with the same speed but disagree on the effective ranges. Sure a crossbow can impart a lot of KE to a bolt when shot but this KE diminishes rapidly due to the shorter length and less weight of a bolt and it's point (practice point or broadhead) since both the length and the weight are crucial in KE storage. The longer and heavier arrows shot in bows will store and exert KE for much longer, thus carrying the arrow much further at a flatter drop curve and have much more energy (knock down power) when it gets to a target at longer distances. Many years ago, I was drawing my' H-500 back after a long practice period and accidentally caught the release trigger on my cheek at about 3/4 draw. Being tired, I had drawn the bow with the bow very much elevated from vertical and the arrow traveled across my' property, across my neighbor's property and entered the woods more than 150 yards from my shooting stance. After entering the woods, the arrow could be heard pinging as it hit tree after tree after tree for several seconds. The arrow was armed with a broadhead and you talking about being paranoid, I sure was! Luckily, no one was up in the woods behind the neighbor's property that afternoon. Also, you ought to see what happens to an arrow that was shot 100 yards at a massive 8 point Buck but hits the edge of a runway at a small airport. An Accordion comes to mind and what once was a 33 inch arrow with broadhead became about a 22 inch arrow with the broadhead super-embedded in the arrow shaft! Although a crossbow bolt would more than likely make it that far, I doubt that there would be such a similar outcome!

Frank

Statistics: Posted by huntsman53 — Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:08 am

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-10T21:00:07-05:00

Considering only KE, I can agree than the effective range of a crossbow verses and comparable compound is no different. However, when you consider other variables, like a persons form, the weight they have to hold back relative to let off, not being able to rest on something while you shoot, less than ideal weather conditions, etc., a crossbow can be more forgiving allowing greater accuracy and range over a persons capabilities with a compound.

Stating that a crossbow has greater range and accuracy may have technically been a misnomer on my part. But I think a person using a compound is potentially affected by any variables more than a person with a crossbow. Personally, I feel more confident of hitting my target with a crossbow verses a compound, and I think most people would feel that way too.

I see your points and certainly do respect your position as well.

Statistics: Posted by Mark — Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:00 pm

Oneida Bows Think Tank • Re: How about an Oneida crossbow?

2010-10-10T18:57:57-05:00

Hi Mark,

Quote:

I believe that the majority would be able to shoot a crossbow more accurately than a compound.

The truth here is the gain accuracy faster than a compound, the reason being it takes more knowledge of form to shoot a compound than it does a crossbow.

Quote:

If needed, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to tune a bolt, similar to tuning an arrow

Sure you could but then you would take away from speed and flight. Remember to get 350 fps from a crossbow you need 200 pounds of pull, to get 350 fps from a compound you need 70 pounds on most newer bows. The flight part comes in the fact an arrow shot from a compound is allowed to flex (archers paradox) where if a bolt flexes on a deck then the odds of dryfire are almost 100%. Because crossbows are by design poor users of energy they may be only 67% efficent with developed energy compared to a compound at 80% and above. Thus bolts need to be short, stiff and forward weighted. Excalibur now recomends 150 gr broadheads for thier crossbows and knowing Bill the way I do it is not without reason.

Quote:

I shot my buddies Ten Point Titan crossbow and was shooting very respectable groups out to 40 yards. We did not shoot beyond that, but it seemed pretty darn flat shooting to me. It shot flatter than my 1989 Screaming Eagle shooting a 430 grain arrow @ 52lbs of draw. Therefore, arrow drop would be less of an issue for me anyway.

Again looking at the weights and speeds I agree with you on the premiss but to compare a new Ten Point which I have shot and an SE is apples and oranges. I disagree that you have to be an above average shooter to group at 40 yards. With regular practice an average shooter can achieve this and more.

On the issue of distancethe kE out of the bow on either using a 400 gr arrow at 280 to 300 fps is no different except one uses 70 pounds and the other needs between 150 to 200 pounds. So the effective ranges are no different.

The issue I take when I hear good folks telling people the distance on a crossbow exceeds that of a compound leads to all the missinformation and wives tails that are told about crossbows that give states and provinces reason to ban them. They are archery equipment and they give no unfair leg up over compounds or traditional equipment. Are they more friendly to our brothers and sisters with injury or handicap, yep.

But then I have seen a few archers that draw a compound with thier teeth that can kick my butt and many who think they are good.

Mark I respect your postition but I will also post the reasons my opinions differ.

Good posts to help people look at both sides.

Bob

Statistics: Posted by OBwon — Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:57 pm